I would be grateful if the readers takes some time to read the following which are a few thought I have collected recently.
But before I present them I must make clear that I do not have any personal problems with the people on either side of the
debate, and that my respect for anyone has not and will not decline because I have greatly benefitted from eveyone registered
here at free-minds, and it would be highly unjust of me to take sides on this topic. Also, I do not wish to create any further
unnecessary friction. I intend not to mock anyone’s beliefs, nor do I intend to guide anyone and I sincerely hope nobody
is offended by this. Peace is the key to salvation, and keeping that in mind I will refer to those who accept 19 and those
who reject it as +19 and -19 respectively.
Brother Edip Yuksel’s translation of 74:31:
appointed angels to be guardians of Hell, and we made their count to be only a "fitna"/trial/punishment for the unappreciative,
to convince those who received the book, to strengthen the faith of the faithful, to remove doubts from the hearts of those
who received the book, as well as the believers, and to expose those who harbor doubt in their hearts, and the disbelievers;
they will say, "What did God mean by this allegory?" God thus sends astray whoever wills, and guides whoever wills. None knows
the soldiers of your Lord except He. This is a reminder for the people." "WE MADE THEIR COUNT TO BE ONLY A "FITNA"/TRIAL/PUNISHMENT FOR THE UNAPPRECIATIVE"
How can +19 be "unappreciative"? Surely they are only doing a good thing by looking to prove divine authorship of
the God’s words? Well to see why, we need to look at the term "unappreciative" - not happy with what they have. Just
like the corruptors that wrote and utilised hadith books, they were not happy with the God's words as they were, they even
told Mhmd to add or take away bits from the the Gods words, things they did not like (The way many +19 do not like 9:128-129,
because it messes up their count 19 and for Mhmd being given an attribute they don’t like to give him, even though God
has given him it). Similarly, +19 may not be happy with the literary quality of God’s words, they don't think that is
enough to prove that it is from God, so in this sense, many among the +19 may be of those unappreciative ones.
my personal experience of what some +19 say here on free-minds it appears that they need this proof to believe in the reading
Mhmd brought being God’s words, and that they don’t think the content and literary quality of reading are enough
to prove divine authorship. Hence, they are unappreciative of what God sent down, they need a count 19 to believe in the reading.
They are unappreciative in two ways: 1. They aren’t appreciative of the God’s words we have, so they end up purposefully
mistranslating the reminder, and even trying to change it by removing verses, although they do not realise this when the are
doing it, because count 19 is a fitna for them 2. They are not satisfied with what the reminder is and contains as proof of
its divine origin, they seek to embrace manmade innovations to cover their doubts, and many +19 would more easily let go of
the reading and be disheartened if count 19 is proven false to them, although this I cannot say with certainty, yet even still,
count 19 does result in rejection of some of God’s words, and through so-called "further discoveries", other rejections
are probably on their way pretty soon. In other words, the fitna is about to get worse. "TO CONVINCE THOSE WHO RECIEVED THE BOOK"
How does the
trial convince those who received the book? The crucial aspect to consider is what are they being convinced of? It doesn't
say anywhere that this will convince them of the divine origins of the reminder (Although late Dr. Khalifah inserted this
in brackets in his translation, for which there is no justification in the Arabic whatsoever). It is to convince those who
received the book, (as God goes on to say), that "GOD thus sends astray whoever wills, and guides whoever wills." And personally,
this trial has convinced me how he sends astray whoever he wants, especially after talking to a +19 brother on Pal talk, where
I introduced him to the Kaba section of Brother Ayman’s article "Language Barrier", where it was proved that there is
no archaeological evidence of the Kaba of Arabia even existing before Mhmd. The response I got was that late Dr. Khalifah
brought the Count 19 miracle, and so either Dr. Ayman can be correct, or Dr. Khalifah can be correct, and he chose Dr Khalifah
because of count 19. Although that person in particular made this progression of his logic clear in speech, there may be other
+19 who think this subconsciously, and that is how the connection has been established between support of the Kaba and support
of count 19. Indeed it is a trial, that this community is facing. A good friend of mine once told me how much of a fool I
had been in spending effort trying to help that person on Paltalk, and I didn’t buy that initially, but I see now how
right he was! Because any attempt I would make to show using God’s words that the Kaba is not justified, the response
would be that late Dr. Khalifah has to be right with the Kaba because he brought the count 19 miracle. This person is in the
count 19 trial, may God have mercy on us all. I personally find it interesting how the focus of debate on 19 diminishes towards
the end of 74:31, where God talks about "God thus sends astray whoever wills, and guides whoever wills". And after my experience
on Paltalk and with a +19 at free-minds, the message of 74:31 has been put across to me now, and I have realised (for my own
good) how sometimes you just cannot help a person if God wills otherwise, no matter how much effort you put in. "TO STRENGTHEN THE FAITH OF THE FAITHFUL, TO REMOVE DOUBTS
FROM THE HEARTS OF THOSE WHO RECEIVED THE BOOK"
How does the 19 trial strengthen the faith of the faithful?
When I was Sunni, I was satisfied by the fact that its the only scripture left among those claiming divine authorship that
actually makes sense when read and can be applied to life, and I also like the scientific content and the fact that it had
been preserved for such a long time against the odds, although I didn’t bother going into too much research on that.
And then I was introduced to late Dr. Khalifahs Article "Hadith and Sunnah - Satanic Innovations", and then I changed, and
I picked up 19 on the way, but after realising that I wasn’t really satisfied with salat details given in the Quran,
I stumbled upon www.aididsafar.com
and the truly beautiful content of the salat section at free-minds (Anyone wanna go there? please do, its waiting for you
with open arms...), and I changed again, and I began to think a bit more about other things I had picked up thinking they
were right, so I decided to take a less biassed look at other side of 19 debate, and I was a half way crook until brother
Ayman’s article that sparked off this debate. So my introduction to count 19 made me go back and look at what exactly
it was about the Quran that proved its divine authorship, other than count 19, and I found that through this process of self
re-evaluation my faith was being increased, I began to see God’s personality emerging from his words, and I felt more
and more at peace when I’d read it. And reading 42:1-2 brought me tears of happiness, I’m not gay or feminine
in anyway lol, don’t get me wrong here, but reading 42:1 the way it is supposed to be read, melted my heart, I suddenly
felt God all around me and within me, like a friend, and that has been a life changing experience I assure you. I can now
really see what the Al-Raheem is! And the net outcome was that before 19, I didn’t really have many organised thoughts
on how I came to accepts Mhmd’s words as God’s words, and after being through the count 19 phase, my faith has
most certainly been strengthened, there’s no question about that.
So although 19 is only a trial for the unappreciative,
my faith was increased by the self re-evaluation I forced myself into after thinking critically about Count 19. There may
be others who were actually brought to reject hadiths by Count 19, but I would still say that it is a trial because to me,
Count 19 is just another set of hadiths, which that person on pal talk was pursuing, and before being let into the glorious
world of his words, God did a final test to see if we are worthy, in the form of Count 19. "AND TO EXPOSE THOSE WHO HARBOR DOUBT IN THEIR HEARTS"
who harbour doubts are the ones who need more than just the reminder itself for their faith in it, they need to make speculative
counts and manipulation of the words of God to have faith in them. If count 19 is shown clearly non-existent to a +19, he/she
is more likely to reject God’s words than those who are appreciative of what the reminder already contains. That is
why many +19 are so protective of count 19, often not having time or energy to participate in any other topic besides count
19, they feel that they can’t just leave the "miracle" to God, they need to actively work to protect its existence themselves,
no miracle needs to be proven, and no miracle is inconsistent, or half revealed. "AND THE DISBELIEVERS; THEY WILL SAY, "WHAT DID GOD MEAN BY THIS ALLEGORY?" GOD THUS SENDS
ASTRAY WHOEVER WILLS, AND GUIDES WHOEVER WILLS."
This has been very controversial part of 74:31, when
+19 and -19 both say the opposition asks this question. The fact of the matter is that both groups ask the question as to
what the verse means, but only the +19 say that it is an allegory, which has some different meaning before 1974, and now 74:30
is referring to the God’s words and not the fire, (because of their own mistranslation, not because it is allegorical),
even though from looking at the context it is clear that 74:30 is about the fire. 74:31 is itself in fact not allegorical!
What two different meanings can you get from this verse without deliberate mistranslation? Only that the count of the angels
is a trial for the unappreciative, there is no other meaning if it is not corrupted. God exposes the +19 as those who say
it is allegorical and points towards count 19, when in fact it isn't. 74:31 is not an allegorical verse! It only looks allegorical
to +19 because they want 74:30 (On it is nineteen) to refer to God’s words, when in fact the start of 74:31 is talking
about the fire, and 74:26-29 is all about fire. +19 are the only ones who truly see it as an allegorical verse, because they
take "On it is nineteen" out of context and mistranslate 74:31 to make it look as though it is allegorical and that it is
not clear what "it" is in the verse "On it is nineteen" +19 are the only ones who ask "What did God mean by this allegory?",
because they led were led into thinking it is allegorical when it isn’t. And the fact that they are asking a question
adds to the effect that they don’t really know that they are being duped into the fitna. With no deliberate mistranslation,
there is no allegory! Because the 74:26-31 is all about the fire, we cant try and find allegory in it to see a miracle in
a fire, even though God asks the rhetorical question of what the scorching fire is and then answers it himself! If we do,
then that’s both indication of wishful thinking and a painfully sad future. "NONE KNOWS THE SOLDIERS OF YOUR LORD EXCEPT HE. THIS IS A REMINDER FOR THE PEOPLE."
Why does God say this all of a sudden? Why does he change the subject? Or is he even changing the subject at all?!
Its like this, the soldiers that nobody knows about are actually the angels he was talking about at the start, not people
who will promote 19. +19 are probably the people who think they are these soldiers (yet I may be wrong in thinking this, God
knows best), but its says clearly that none knows them except God, so it cannot be prophets or messengers either, it has to
be those who nobody knows, because if it was people on Earth, then there will always be some people who think those people
to be soldiers of God, and everyone knows that they exist. He is clearly talking about the 19 angels, so he hasn't changed
the topic at all. And the last bit is what I find to be a bit of light humour from God, like chapter 109 (Or maybe I need
a few more years before I stop finding that that a bit funny...) He says right at the end of 74:31 that "This is a reminder
for the people." Here he is highlighting the fact that he mentioned the angels at the end of the passage as well, to make
it clear that it is all about the angels guarding hell and that the point is so that we are careful (the whole point of 74:31
is to reminds us to be careful and not be of the unappreciative ones), and conscious of the fact that we don't want to end
up in the scorching fire. Hell is being described here, and God is not doing anything wrong by doing that, we don’t
need to make it an allegorical verse and say that is referring to a miracle. HOW THIS IS ALL INTEGRATED INTO AND CONFIRMED BY THE REST OF CHAPTER 74
often set the scene for the argument using the alleged name for the chapter as "The hidden", when in fact it is clear that
such names for the chapters were not send down and were later additions, yet they seem not to be able to let go of this hearsay.
However, this easily works to the effect that the +19 again see allegory where there isn't. Using the FM/PM translation...
1 O you blanketed one.
2 Stand and Warn
3 And your lord glorify
4 And purify your outer
5 And leave all that is vile
+19 often quote 74:1-2 and suggest that these verses highlight the
concept of something hidden that will stand and warn, hinting towards count 19. Again they are asking the question "What did
God mean by this allegory?", yet it becomes clear if one reads on that count 19 cannot glorify the lord, nor can it purify
the out garments, nor can it leave all that is vile. Simple logic would lead us to accept that the blanketed one has to be
an individual, whoever that may be, perhaps it is Mhmd. This is another example where there is no allegory, and +19 suggest
it is, using extra quranic insertions in the form of chapter titles to justify such allegory, when in fact it is not there,
it is a simple straight forward passage.
10 Upon the rejecters it will not be easy
11 So leave
me alone with the one I have created
12 And I gave him abundant wealth
Looking at the above three passages, number
11 sounds odd, would God ever tell us to leave him alone? He wouldn't. To my knowledge this is actually being said by the
person whom God is later describing from number 12. So it should be translated with the appropriate punctuation...
10 Upon the rejecters it will not be easy
11 "So leave me alone with the one I have created"
12 And I gave
him abundant wealth.
13 And children to bear witness.
14 And I made everything comfortable for him.
15 Then he
is greedy wanting that I give more.
16 No. He was stubborn to our revelations.
This is very interesting, becuase
it is clear from the sizeable majority of posts +19 ever contribute at free-minds are to do with count 19, and when this is
highlighted to them, they just carry on counting 19, coming up with their own "discoveries"/"further discoveries", and, astonishingly,
passage 11 fits these people exactly, whether they say it openly, or think it consciously/subconsciously.
14 And I made everything comfortable for him.
15 Then he is greedy wanting that I give more.
16 No. He was
stubborn to our revelations.
+19 could be the ones here that want more than they have already, which is why they are
referred to as the "unappreciative" in 74:31 - they are not happy with what they have already. in passage 16, God could have
said "He rejected the revelations", what kind of behaviour is being described by being stubborn to a scripture? This stubbornness
is in trying to correct the perfect revelations, again +19 are unappreciative of the revelations
(They even reject two of these revelations, and more probably) - they do not appreciaite what they have
already, and they are stubborn towards it, they are way too occupied with count 19 to consider other important topics, they
want to be left alone with what they have created (remember 74:11).
15 Then he is greedy wanting that
I give more.
16 No. He was stubborn to our revelations.
17 I will exhaust him in climbing.
18 He thought and he
19 So woe to him for how he thought
20 Then woe to him for how he thought
21 Then he looked
he frowned and became bad tempered
23 Then he turned away and was arrogant
24 So he said: "This is nothing but the
magic of old."
25 "This is nothing but the words of a human"
Interestingly we often consider ourselves to be "progressive
muslims", yet its is easily noticeable to see who among the +19 and the -19 are progressive, who strives to learn more, and
who dwells on one topic, the topic of count 19? This climb that is being described in passage 17 is eactly that, the climb
towards heaven, where the +19 have stopped, becuase of their unappreciatievess, and it is undisuptedly clear that +19 tend
to spend way more time with count 19 than on anything else, they fail to progress, becuase God has exhausted them in the climb
becuase of their stubborness.
This unappreciative stubborness is something I have witnessed myself after I decided
to register at 19.org to meet more friends, unfortunately, I soon began to see that I wouldn't fit in, I'd be like one of
those rejected verses. The following are the four final posts on the thread http://19.org/forum/index.php?t=msg&th=3812&start=40&rid=772&S=e5aad8ede11eb1456ad264c557fe5cce
I personally found the whole episode to be a disgraceful display of the words of God just being wasted. The sectarians turned
the word of God into a singing matra book, and the +19 turned it into one long shopping list of baked, tinned, smoked, fresh,
processed, and organic 19. This I say not to mock count 19, but because it truly cheesed me off to see someone asking for
help on the salat issue, something many of us have had great problems, and then the +19 roll in. I must say that did break
my heart. But I will let the reader make their own judgement of common occurences such as these at 19.org, take a look for
yourselves. (The first post shown is referring to aidid safar's book). http://19.org/forum/index.php?t=msg&th=3812&start=40&rid=772&S=e5aad8ede11eb1456ad264c557fe5cce
|burgher wrote on Sat, 04 June 2005 00:12 wrote:|
|What do you guys think about his treatment of this topic, Page 316 (Part 10). Was that reasonable? I am a wee bit uncomfortable on the logic of that argument. |
I find that the book makes sense, his treatment of ‘salat’ dispels all the controversy of the number of times
we need to pray and the prayer times, which seems illogical according to conventional interpretations. Though his treatment
stills begs the question of why we uphold our obligations, only at the two times of the day, dusk and dawn.
clear is that there is no universal agreement on the message of God. There can be many translations for a simple word like
‘salat’ alone. To be able to take it in the right context requires a profound understanding of the environment
and the situation at that time, when the message was received. This requires a study ranging to from history to anthropology. In the absence of accurate written records this is a
|164264 wrote on Mon, 06 June 2005 19:48 wrote:|
I was studying the occurrences of the word ‘Bayt’ in the Quran.
there are 19 verses where this word occurs. The total frequency is 22 ( sura 22 is Haj )
18 ) 52:4
|164264 wrote on Mon, 06 June 2005 20:12 wrote:|
looks like i was too tired and got a little confused.
There are exactly 19 occurrences
of the word 'Bayt' in the Quran.
(just 'Bayt' not 'Baytan' or 'Bayteka' or 'Bayteha', etc.)
the list of the verses
are the same.
|idmkhizar wrote on Mon, 06 June 2005 21:24 wrote:|
There are exactly 19 occurrences of the word 'Bayt' in the Quran.
(just 'Bayt' not 'Baytan' or 'Bayteka' or 'Bayteha', etc.)
Khi- Salam. If 'baytan' was not counted n the cnt reulted in a multiple of 19 this i guess further strengthens one
of my previous pts tht NON-abstract nouns in the Quran r 2 be cnted WITHOUT the emphatic Alif ONLY. Now i know three cases
i.e. Rasool(Rasoolan NOT cnted), Quran(Quranan NOT cnted) n bayt(baytan NOT cnted). All three r non-abtract which means they
CAN be physical. Unlike the attributed of GOD which r purely abstract descriptions n hence the emphatic included. Thus RK
is justified in not counting the word 'Quranan' which bro Edip considered a deviation from the general rule. Now we see tht
it was justified. GOD Bless!
May God protect us all
from the fitna of count 19, and make us more appreciative of Gods words.
The thoughts that involve uptake of count
19 are then eloquently described through passages 18 to 25, where the +19 considers passages from the words of God, and by
pasage 25 he has rejected by saying they are words of a human, and this is exactly what many +19 would say about 9:128-129,
and most likely other passages in the near future through so-called "further discoveries", may the God protect us all.
35 It is one of the great ones
36 A warning to mankind
This is exactly what 74:31 is, a great warning to
mankind, to avoid the fitna of count 19, and he has expressed this in no unclear terms. + 19 again turn this into an allegory
saying that the great warning is in fact count 19 (becuase somehow it would warn people of something, yet nobody can explain
how it has ever done that), where in fact the whole passage is about hell fire, and these words of God are the great warning,
not count 19, there is no allegory, but still they are asking "What did God mean by this allegory?" even when it is clear
that there is no allegory there. Had it been count 19 that was the great warning, then passage 36 would say "A warning to
the disbelievers/rejectors", but the great warning in 74:31 is adresed to believers and disbelievers alike, becuase according
to the last bit of 74:31, the the ones who ask "What did God mean by this allegory?" will ogically be those who claim belief
in God, as oposed to -19, who ask the perfectly logical question "What did God mean by saying this?", becuase to them there
is no bluriness so they do not pursue the fitna of count 19, and they see clearly that there is no allegory.
50 They are like fleeing zebras
51 Running from the lion.
Why does God give the example of these two animals?
What transaction takes place between them? Perhaps if we put the next passage into the picture we'll see.
50 They are like fleeing zebras
51 Running from the lion.
52 Alas, every one of them wants to be given separate
The lion is infact a respresentation of this great warning in chapter 74, and notice why God uses the
words "fleeing zebras" - try imagining a birds eye view of the situation, a lion sat in the middle, the "fleeing zebras" disperse
into different directions! Even if seen as the lion running after them, the Zebras being chased don't all run in one direction,
they take on their different haphazardly chosen paths, and this is reflected clearly in passage 52, where each +19 wants a
separate scripture, according to their modifications based on count 19. Judging the nature of count 19, the +19 cannot simply
agree on what is a miracle and what isn't, as is clearly seen from their participation at free-minds, they do not have any
tool that they can use to choose the correct direction, all is entirely subjective. In the jungle situation, each zebra disperses
into a different direction, choosing haphazardly as it goes, in exactly the same way some +19 would see one "discovery" as
a miracle, and the other would argue, that it is not a miracle.
53 No, they do not fear the Hereafter.
Instead, the +19 accuse others of going to the fire, when infact their own created allegories prevent them from seeing
that great warning in chaptrer 74, so indeed, they do not fear, instead they accuse others of going to hell, whilst simultaneously
fulfilling the criteria of passages 22 and 23
22 Then he frowned and became bad tempered.
he turned away and was arrogant.
One argument put forward is that -19 cannot see the miracle, instead they see hell
fire, and that means -19 are going to hell. In fact the opposite is true, -19 see the great warning in chapter 74 so they
fear the hereafer, wheras +19 claim an allegory exists and puruse the fitna of count 19, whilst ignoring the warning. This
is in itself one of the things which reminds me (as well) of...
101-102 And when there came to them
a messenger from The God, confirming what was with them, a party of the people of the book threw away the book of The God
behind their backs, as if they did not know. And they followed what the devils recite regarding Solomon's kingship. Solomon
did not reject, but the devils rejected by teaching people EYE
TRICKERY and what was descended on the two kings Harut and Marut at Babylon. They do not teach anyone until
they say: "We are but a "fitna"/trial/affliction, so do not reject". So they learn from them what they separate with between
the person and his mate, and they are not harming with it anyone except with The God's permission. And they learn what harms
them and does not benefit them, and they have known that for who accepted it, there is no share of happiness in the ending,
and miserable indeed is what they exchanged with themselves, had they knew.
There is a great warning for us to avoid
the fitna of count 19 to avoid the hell fire, yet the eye trickery is leading us to approach the count 19 fitna by labelling
it a miracle. May God save us all.
When introduced to count 19, I was told that all levels of mental ability can appreciate
the "mathematical miracle", so I think it is eveyone's right to be able to criticise count 19 without being labelled an idiot,
or intelectually challenged or disbeliever or fried fish or whatever. I follow none except my nose when I'm hungry, and the
God is my only guide.
To those who would still ask the question, but what about this occurence of 19, and that occurence
of 19, all I would say is that God is indeed the best judge, and if he tells me to stay away from this fitna to avoid the
hell fire, I will, no matter how many counts of 19 are created and how convincing the eye trickery looks, unless it is proven
that God does not reject this so-called "mathematical miracle beyond probability", after all, it is described by him to be
"Only a fitna/trial/punishment for the unappreciative".
Again I’d like to remind the reader that peace is the
key to salvation, peace within oneself and amongst the community... Cutting to the chase, I have made good friends, and I
don't want to lose them by voicing these views. May the God lead us all to the truths, whatever they may be.